Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the
podcast where you can experience an

example customer interview every week.

You'll discover new perspectives on
different software products and improve

your customer interview technique.

As I attempt to do the same

I'm Jonathan Manuel.

And this week I'll be interviewing.

Megan says, Megan is a customer of
toggle toggles, a time-tracking to.

How are we trying to understand why
Megan purchased, toggle, how she uses it

and what alternatives she's considered?

Megan is one half of
the design partnership.

Make good design, make good design
is on a mission to elevate the brands

that are doing good in the world.

Hi, Megan, thank you so much
for, uh, taking the time to,

uh, to talk to us, um, today.

Um, uh, before we get started, um, I just
wanted to ask if you have any questions.

I'm very keen to ask you all about,
um, toggle and why you've decided

to use that piece of software
for your, for your business.

Um, so I wanted to always make sure
that you're comfortable with, uh,

recording this, um, Normally a customer
interview, like this might record

it to help me so that I don't have
to take notes all the way through.

And so that I might share with colleagues,
but obviously this is a podcast and

it's going out to, um, anyone that
panties listening to and learning

from this experience for both of us.

So, uh, yeah, you have
comfortable with that.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Um, right.

So, uh, first question, can you tell
me about, um, how you got to the

point of needing a time tracking tool?

I'm assuming that's the main
reason you're using, um, toggle?

Yeah,

Megan: well, actually I've always
used one for a really long time now.

Um, but I didn't always use toggle.

Um, and it used to be.

When I was a freelancer or even at
the small agency that I used to work

at, we needed to sort of keep track of
how long we spent on certain projects.

Um, in some cases that's just
to monitor things and sort of

work out how long things take.

So we know how much to
invoice or charge next time.

In other cases, it's because
we're charging the client

so of per the hour per day.

So it's a good way to keep.

Um, and then most recently where we
formed a company of two of us, um,

it became even more important to, uh,
especially at the beginning, keep track

of how much work we were both doing.

Um, because initially that's actually how
we were giving up, um, how much we were

earning and paying, paying ourselves.

Um, we're sort of moving away from
that model a little bit now, but.

It was really important to sort of
keep tracks on, on what we were doing.

Jon: Yeah.

That makes sense.

And, um, and so can you walk me through,
um, the, the process of, of, of tracking

your time and what's, um, output it
is that you want out of the end of it?

Um, yeah, that, that can be how
you're used to do it as well as

how you're, you're doing it now.

Um, so

Megan: there's two ways we do it.

One is when I'm working.

Um, if I know that that client is
one where I need to be literally

tracking how much time, because
we want to retain it for them.

So we need to know when
we use that plummet.

Um, as soon as I start working on
their work, I have the, um, Coco

program pinned in my Chrome browser
and I open it up and hit record.

Um, I know that Becky, my business
partner actually does it retrospectively.

So she goes back in at the end
of the day and just puts in how

much she's spent on each project.

Um,

Jon: that's

Megan: one way of doing it the other way.

Is also the other way.

Yeah.

I suppose what Becky does is
retrospectively going in sort of pitching

in, or sometimes it's just like, we're
working for a whole day for that clients.

We just go back in and
put it in retrospectively.

Jon: Yeah.

And was that process
similar with previous tools?

Um, did you, was there ever a time
where you didn't have a tool, but

you were tracking your, your time?

Um,

Megan: I've been, I had phases where I
happened when I've just been on the road.

Straight forward contract.

It really doesn't need any time tracking.

We've built up that trust with the
client and then interested in seeing

then you kind of will break down.

Um, but I used to have.

Uh, the different products
it's called office time.

And I used that for about
probably seven or eight years.

And that was, um, it had an app that
was set up in my toolbar at the bottom.

Um, and so I was a bit worried about
moving away from that one because then

having it in the browser instead, but.

It was, I mean, one day of remembering
that it's not down there and actually

it's up that I needed to click.

Um,

Jon: yeah, I think so.

And, and so do you have like, um, as a
habit or a muscle memory of, of going

to a tool when you're starting work?

Yeah.

Megan: There have been times when it's
been very muscle memory that a movement.

It depends.

It depends on how we're
working at the moment.

It's getting back to muscle memory because
I'm juggling a few different projects.

I need to keep track, but more.

But it there's been times when it's
been so muscle memory that it's like

a process of put my headphones in,
hit play on Spotify and hit play on

the, um, local office time product.

And I actually, at one point used to
think to myself, it'd be so good if

they could tie those two things together
so that I could just, the moment I hit

play, it's playing music as well, because
it was just getting me in the zone.

Jon: All right.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Um, interesting.

Uh, and, um, so tell me
more about that process.

You mentioned it's, Tableau's in
a browser tab, you're using it.

Um, and so did you say that.

It's always open.

Um,

Megan: and,

Jon: um,

Megan: and that's just
generally how I work now.

I sort of have all of my main products
that I use that are online and have

been pinned, um, across the top.

Yup.

They got my email

Jon: chalet,

Megan: Oracle calendar.

Jon: Right.

So you open the browser and
they're all there waiting.

And, and when you, um, quick, is it starts
in toggle, um, is that, is that the only

thing you do or do you enter anything
about the work that you're about to do.

Yeah, you have

Megan: to, um, and I have to snap
sometimes if it's something I really want

to make sure we like what we were doing,
then you could have a little field where

you can put in exactly what you're doing.

I don't do that very often, but
it's just, it's something I'm usual.

Um, in case we questioned at some point

Jon: or client.

So the main thing you're tracking is
that you're working for a particular

client in that period of time.

Megan: Yeah.

And so one of our clients that we're
working on in particular, one of

the projects so that, um, they can
see sort of how much time is being

spent on each of their projects.

Jon: Got it.

And.

And then there were, see you've hit start.

Um, and then you're going on to doing
the work that you'll be building for.

Um, and just give us a little
overview of what the, what sort of

work is that or what you're using.

It's a laptop based work.

I take it.

Um,

Megan: yes.

So then I will drink the crime window
and I'll get on with designing in.

Um, or whatever reading or something.

Um, yeah, and then I'll just
leave it running until I stop now.

I used to be very good at then
remembering to stop it and office

time used to actually, I didn't, I
used to do some sort of reminder, uh,

perhaps if I've stopped in perhaps
a stepped away from my computer.

I've come back and it would pop
up and say, you're still timing.

Um, and that would be really handy.

Uh, total doesn't do that, but
I do think that I'm probably not

using toggle as what, as a kid do.

I know when we downloaded it.

Um, but when we first started
using it, I felt like they were.

The phase of a lots of
development and product releases.

And we're probably haven't kept up
with all of the beaches and things.

I think maybe it does have a desktop
app, but I haven't downloaded anything.

It's one of those things where you
think you should look into it, but

it's just time and it's working fine.

And I'd rather just not think about it.

Jon: Yeah.

And so did he, is it a concern that you're
not, um, that, that you might fail to

press the stop button when you finish

working?

Megan: Just, I think sometimes it, you
know, to you and says you've been working

on this for 18 hours on your account.

It doesn't actually say
that, but it should.

That'd be funny.

I'd like that.

Jon: But,

Megan: you know, you can just see in
the timeline that you've gone way off.

And usually I can just,
you can just send editor.

I know we'll probably stopped, but
X time we don't have to be really

precise with the planning of things.

It's just good just to keep track.

So it doesn't matter too much.

Jon: Yeah.

And, uh, and so what
typical periods are you.

Timing, um, uh, or we're
looking at a morning and then an

afternoon or smaller chunks or,

Megan: yeah.

Um, warning sometimes I've
just got whole day in.

Um, sometimes if I just I'm really
jumping around, I might be having a

day where I'm jumping around the dots.

I mean, that case, I just literally.

When I, you know, when I finished on
something or say I'm by myself, suddenly

working on something else for another
client, I wasn't expecting to, I, as

long as that's the client where it's a
billable thing, then I will just quickly

sort of put in that I've been working
on it for half an hour and then leave

it running, um, whilst I'm working on
it, just because otherwise I've, I find

that where we've got these returns.

Um, agreements I'm at risk of
working and not getting paid for it,

because if I don't remember, it's
just little thing here and there.

Um, it's good to put it
in whilst I think of it.

Jon: Yeah.

See that.

Um, and is there anything
special that you do at the end

of the day or the end of a week?

Uh,

Megan: No, but we use it to report
if that's what you're imagining.

Um, we, at the end of each month,
we will do a report, but that's

only for one of our clients.

I don't think they even look at it,
but it was just, uh, not, uh, what's

the word, the nice thing to do for them
so they can see, um, the breakdown of.

What we've been doing for them and what's
costing them lots and that kind of thing.

Right.

Jon: And that's a client with
multiple projects where more than

one of you are working on it.

Right?

Yeah.

Megan: I think it's really
interesting on that.

I really liked looking
at the reports as well.

It's very interesting.

Yeah.

Jon: What is it about their quotes
that makes the next interesting.

Megan: Yeah.

On Toko, uh, just officially.

Um, displayed.

So just a nice play chart.

Um, there's different ways you
can have it, um, export it, but it

breaks it down sort of what I've been
working on, what Becky's been working

on, how long, different projects
Turk, and you can really do not

realize how long something's taken.

And it's very interesting to see overall

Jon: how long it's taken.

Yep.

And what, what are the steps involved in
producing one of those, um, uh, reports.

Megan: You want me to look at it?

Or should I tell you these steps?

Or do you want me to
see if I can remember?

Jon: Uh, if it's, if it's
in front, if it's British VZ

crispy, that's my dog barking.

Sorry about that.

We both got all okay.

Both my dogs are going.

So you were going to have
a look at the reports.

Um,

And only if it's a, if it's really
easy to tell in front of you, but, um,

Megan: um, so there's sort of like a
panel with reports and I just click it.

And, um, then there's some different
views that you can choose from sort of

like a summary or detailed on Wiki view.

And you can sort of,
there's lots of filters.

You can filter it like project
team member, or client, or.

What should I use?

Jon: Yeah.

Megan: Yeah.

What do I usually do a summary report?

Cause that's the one which is more visual.

Um, and then I sort of select the client
and then the timeframe, um, it has a

really nice way of showing timeframes.

It has like a calendar.

And so you can do your usual
selects two points in a calendar,

or it's got some sort of shortcuts.

So today, yesterday, this week,
last week, this month, and they're

really helpful if some of that.

Um, so once I've done that and I've
got what timeframe I want, um, there's

a download button and it just lets
you download a PDF or a CSV file.

Jon: Yeah.

And then you see send
that PDF to your client.

Yeah.

And do you store that yourself?

Um, well, we use it
internally for anything or no.

Megan: I mean, you should be in
a hurry when I do that bit, I'm

just sending the invoice slightly.

It will probably be in
free agent, somewhat.

Well, I've uploaded it, but
I don't want to safe in it.

Jon: Right.

So you send it with, sorry,
you send it in the same email.

Megan: Yeah.

But I send the invoice by attach there.

Jon: Yeah.

That makes sense.

Um, and so, uh, you feel it's doing
everything you want to contract.

Megan: Yeah, I think so.

Um, but it has a whole nother
set of features, um, is toggled.

Now I've got a few different products
and we'll talk all of, so we use toggled

track, um, but also use topical plan.

Um, do you want me to talk about both.

Jon: I'm interested in what, what maybe
if we, first of all, back up a little bit.

So, um, when did you decide to
start using toggle and what,

what prompted you to, to do that?

Was it maybe for plan or was it
for track it at that point in time?

Megan: It was for track originally.

And it was when we started
our business last year.

Jon: Do you remember why you chose toggle?

Um,

Megan: so I was using office time,
but Becky, my business partner didn't

have that one and I think I'd paid
a one-off payment for it years ago.

And so I wasn't paying for it.

And when we first started our
business, we just wanted to

keep overheads really, really.

Um, so I was really conscious of those
different subscriptions to things.

Um, I think toggle don't
think it was that expensive.

It was obviously one that wasn't hugely
expensive, but we will say there was

another one chat, but I don't think any

Jon: of them.

Megan: Oh, sorry.

I missed the step.

So I had it, but when we, when I said
to Becky that she should also get

it, it was looking really expensive.

So, and we compared it to toggle and
actually took all, looked like it was

now a much, much better product than this
sort of old product I was using before.

Um, and it, I have to say.

It's very shallow, but the
marketing on taco is really lovely.

And the platform itself is really,
really beautifully designed.

And for us we're designers,
we really appreciate that.

Um, and it was, I think that was a bit
of a deciding factor actually, but also

had to do everything it needed to do.

Jon: Right.

I can definitely see that.

Um, and, uh, do you, do you remember
how you found out that toggle

existed at to even, um, find it?

Megan: I need the name and I
suspect I knew the name because

I had seen some of their design.

Like on some of the design platforms,
I think maybe they had done some really

lovely illustrations and I'm quite up to
date like cool 3d rendered illustrations.

So it probably pops up a few times when
I was doing some research for other

stuff, but that I didn't tweak that, that
I didn't know what they did from that.

It was only then when we started working
together, I said to Becky, well, I've

got office time, but you'll need to do.

The dominator.

Do you want to have a quick look and
see if there's any other options?

And she, she did a bit of research and
came back with a few options and toggle

was the one that jumped out at us.

And then that was when I
made the connection that I

sort of heard of them before.

Sorry.

I think in the past toggle had sort of
come up and I'd dismissed it because

I don't think it was very good.

Um, but it's improved.

Jon: Right.

Do you remember where you may have
seen those examples of have designed

any specific platforms or their forum?

I don't know.

Megan: I expect it would have
been on a website called dribble.

Right.

Um, which is, I don't know if you
know it, but it's a design website.

Design is upload their designs to it.

Jon: Yeah.

Yeah.

I've come across it a few, few times.

I've certainly seen it over
the shoulder of different

designers that I've worked with.

Um, and, and so, uh, as do you
go, do you go to dribble often?

Um, yeah, quite,

Megan: quite often.

Not as much as I used to, but
yeah, it's a bit of a staple.

Driveline Pinterest design research.

Jon: Yeah.

Okay.

So, so when you're in research or
mode or looking for some inspiration,

so could that be daily or weekly?

Um,

Megan: probably weekly.

Jon: Yeah.

Or maybe is something
that prompts you to use.

Yeah, it's

Megan: usually triple is usually at
the start of the project, um, that we

would spend quite a lot of time looking.

And then maybe a few points during
the project I've been driven today,

actually, because I was researching,
um, some UI patterns and I wanted

to see what other people are doing.

Jon: Okay.

So you mentioned that you think
you probably first noticed or saw

some of the illustrations from.

Um, could there have been anywhere
else that you might've seen it?

Um, or come across it?

Megan: I might've seen it.

Jon: I've

seen them.

Megan: No, I would see, I don't
think they would come through

on like Facebook or Instagram.

Maybe Instagram design, Instagram account.

Jon: Got it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Um, and so, um, whereabouts
talk about, um, uh, to-go plan.

See you, um, actually just
before we get to that, your.

You've learned about a toggle and, um,
and you're even reviewing different

time tracking tools with Becky.

Um, it jumped out at you at the
point when you're about you're

making the decision together.

I seem to whether or not this was
going to be the one that you'd buy.

Was there anything that you're
unsure about or that was unclear?

Um, yeah, I think.

Megan: I was aware that I was very tied
to office time, but it was a very sort of,

it felt quite antiquated, but it did have
beaches that I was really used to using.

And I was worried that chocolate
wouldn't have these features.

Um, like the one I told you about
earlier, where if you've been away

from your computer for a while,
it sort of says to you, um, do

you want to keep recording or not?

But.

I felt like introducing that really
old tool to Becky and sort of forcing

her to use it when there seems to be
so much nicer products out there, it

Jon: was

Megan: probably not, I don't know.

I didn't feel good about doing that.

So I wanted to look into the other
options, especially because of the price.

Um, and then I can assume tremendous,
really struggling to find out

from the products we were looking.

Whether or not, they have
the features that we wanted.

Um, but I think in the end we did the
free trial, which is really helpful, but

it would have been nice if I could have
found that information out on the website

first, because when you do a free trial
where you sort of invest a certain amounts

of time and filling in your data and that
kind of thing, getting it all set up.

A bit quite into it then.

Jon: Definitely.

Yeah.

Maybe.

And do you remember what those speeches
were, but you want to know that

Megan: it's probably mostly that sort
of use, but ease of use at the timer?

But I also just found that some of
the other things we looked at were,

Jon: um,

Megan: sort of probably
over-engineered for what we needed.

Jon: Um, so

Megan: that was more sort of
like not too many features.

It was probably one of
the things rather than.

Um, specifically is so it's just
the timing and the reporting

at that time we wanted to

Jon: use.

Megan: And I suppose

Jon: the,

Megan: yeah, actually the, having to
two accounts, being able to see two

people's timings, everything in one place.

Um, what's

Jon: really important.

Yeah, definitely see how that makes sense.

And do you remember any of the other
products that you were looking at?

Can't remember?

No.

I think, um,

Megan: rescue time is another one
which we do actually use, but it's

different and you could probably
use it in the same way, but.

Jon: Do you use that as well?

So

Megan: we rescue time because we
both work, um, quite flexible hours.

We wanted to in the first year of working
together to figure out how much we're both

working, um, and rescue time, basically
just monitors, sort of what you're up to

when your computer and how productive.

But we don't, um, use
that in a, in a team way.

So we don't make that
visible to each other.

Cause I don't really agree with that.

Um, it's more of a personal, um, way
of keeping track of how productive

you're being and being able to just
report a bit on how many hours I've

worked, that I've been at my computer
using programs that are work programs.

Jon: Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

So, uh, so you've rescued time to sort
of give you an understanding of the

way that you're using the machine and
when you're, when you're working, um,

which you can choose to share with
your business partner or, or not.

And just to help understand
different working patterns,

but toggles the place where.

You're sharing deliberately with
each other, how much you're working

on different, different things.

Yeah.

Megan: We're not sort of, let's
do like chunks of time where

we haven't trapped anything and
toggle, we don't track everything.

We started off tracking everything.

Um, but because I can't remember why
now we just wanted to see how much

we were interested to see how much
time we were spending on various

things like marketing and this.

Um, we stopped in after a while.

Cause it's just pretty much,

Jon: yeah, I can definitely
see how that would be the case.

And, um, is there, uh, is there anything
you would like you wish toggle might do?

Um, uh, that it doesn't do

well,

Megan: um, Product which they haven't
fully integrated it, integrated them.

Right.

Um, or if they have, I haven't, we'd
already got set up using toggle track in a

particular way and way toggle plan works.

We have to, we changed the
way we'd set everything up.

Um, so we haven't managed to like
seamlessly integrate the two features

and it would be just nice if these
features were all part of the same.

Um, because it's a bit frustrating or not.

Um, and the other thing is

Jon: the

Megan: lack of keep saying, oh, you, what?

You've stepped away from your computer.

Do you still wants the time, this or not?

That's really helpful.

Um, and I don't know if it has, um, I
don't know what the technical word is for

it, but when, you know, when you have.

And on your Mac, there's lots of
icons at the top, the very top of

the screen, um, and some products and
it will control up there so you can

stop and start things from up there.

And it doesn't do that.

And that's a guess
because it's not a nature

Jon: that,

Megan: um, it's just
running in the browser.

Uh, but that would be nice if it, yeah.

If there was somewhere I could
just quickly switch on and off

climbing rather than having to
go to the tab in my browser.

Jon: Yeah.

Megan: Epic.

You ever heard this really?

Like going, oh, we've got
that, but you're not using it.

Yeah.

We're not using it if it does fit.

Jon: Yeah.

Yeah, that's okay.

It happens.

And so it's like, can you tell me
a bit more about, um, this, uh,

frustration, lack of maybe, um,
integration between plan and track and

what, what, what is it, why do you want
them to integrate, what do they, what

does plan do for you and on top of,

Megan: so you plan, um, we go
through phases of using it lots

and they're not using it at all.

And it just depends on the
type of work we're doing.

If we've got holidays and complex
complicated sort of schedules to

try and organize or work, we've
got another freelancer working

with us, that kind of thing.

I'm trying to figure out.

If we've actually got time to do
everything we've said, we're going to do.

Um, it's basically just a calendar and you
put blocks in for each project and task.

You could go as detailed
as you wanted, but with.

Just sort of blocking out, like we're
working on that, that day and that day

kind of thing, which I really like to
do when I've got the time to do it.

Cause it brings your blood pressure down
a bit, seeing it all just planned out.

Um, but the annoying thing is, is
so in, in plan you can, on those

blocks, you can hit play on the block.

So I could just live in planet
I wanted and just go, um, Yeah.

I plan to work on that and
yeah, I'm working on it.

Hit play on it.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

So sort of tracking that I'm working
on the thing I had planned to work on.

Um, but the annoying thing is that the
way we've got it set up, isn't connected

to the projects that we've got set up.

Total track.

Jon: Um,

Megan: and I seem to remember when we
set it all up, when we started using

plan, I could see that, I don't know.

That was a different way of
setting your projects up basically.

Um,

Jon: and

Megan: we, I don't know when
we're not using it in there.

In the way that means that we
can do that with you today.

And it seems like they obviously just
felt like too much work to do or change

the way we're working so that it does was

Jon: that yeah.

I can see how that must feel really
disjointed, especially if you want to

sometimes work one way and some time.

Yeah.

Megan: Yeah.

I can see it.

It's a difficult challenge to solve.

Jon: Um,

Megan: it feels like, and I think
the thing with toggle is that one of

those products that in recent years
have obviously been doing a lot of.

So development, releasing new features
and it feels like the products continually

and breathing and evolving, which is nice.

So there's this kind of sense that there
probably is the features that I want if I

took the time to dig into it a bit more.

And that's only in the last
year that we've been using it.

Jon: All right.

Um, and so a hypothetical question
for you, what would you do if

you couldn't use toggle anymore?

For some reason, why

Megan: would I use office time?

Jon: Yeah.

Megan: When I've just looked off his
time's website and I can see that they

have now updated, they don't look good.

Old fashioned anymore.

So maybe that would be an option,
but it definitely expensive.

Jon: Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

So a final question.

Um, is there anything else you
feel I should know about Toggl

and your experience with it?

Um, by the way, your business uses it.

I

Megan: would just say that of all the
products that I thought bought pending

my browser, but you should be, it's just
really nice and clean and happy colors.

It feels really happy.

Yeah.

That makes a big difference to me.

Um, I don't feel like it's a chore.

It feels like fun.

Jon: Yeah, great.

I'm sure the team it's over.

We're very, very pleased to hear that.

Thank you so much for your time, Megan.

Um, it would be great to, uh, hear
a little bit more about you and your

business and, um, what, what you do, um,
which provide a little bit of context for

the rest of this conversation as well.

Um, so, um, the name of your company,

Megan: It's make good.

We'll make good design and, um, with
a small design partnership and we do,

um, design for, we say of any, any
business organization that's making

good things happen in the world.

So, um, we focus sort of on everything
from brand, um, brand strategy, three.

Um, digital design, so websites
and digital products to

apps and that kind of thing.

Um, yeah, I know there's two of
us and we also have, um, the UX

designer who works with us as a con
on contract and, uh, a couple of

brand strategists and, um, a couple
of web developers that we work with.

So we've got like a little quarter.

Um, uh, regular collaborators.

Um, but essentially it's, it's just
the two of us who actually, uh,

sort of run the company together.

Jon: Where can we find out more about you?

Megan: Um, it's on our website
is make good design.co.uk.

Jon: You on Twitter or Instagram and

Megan: say, we do have a Twitter account,
but we've been too busy to use it.

Um, we're on LinkedIn and
we're on Instagram as well,

but again, too busy to use it.

LinkedIn is linked.

LinkedIn is a good place
to connect, actually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um,

Jon: Krista definitely check out.

Um, so make good design.co.uk.

Um, let's see some of the, um,
uh, wonderful work that make,

um, and Becky, uh, I've been
working on over the last year.

Um, thank you so much again for your time.

Megan has been really good.

Um, uh, I've never dug so deeply
into the whole process of using,

using time tracking tools.

So that's been super insightful.

Uh, um, and, uh, so I found a question
for you, um, or maybe it's about what

those other, um, apps are that you have
pinned in your, in your browser, but

what, what other tools you're using,
if you've got three others, um, that

you'd recommend people check out.

Um, so

Megan: then I use free agent for all of
our accounting, um, an invoice sending.

And I couldn't really, I feel like I
couldn't run a business without that.

I know there's other products that do some
of the things, but I really like reagents.

Um, and I use the Google suite.

So Google calendar is
really, really useful for me.

And then we do all our
design work in Sigma or.

Um, which is an amazing
product it's online.

So you can see everybody working
online and, but it's super

fast as well, which is amazing.

Then it's very clever
and enjoyable to use.

Um, and then the other one we use loads
is, is trailing managing projects.

Jon: Alright.

Excellent.

Thank you so much.

I'm also a big free agent fan have been
for more of a decade, more than a decade.

I very much recommend people check
out all of those tools as well.

Thank you so much for your time, Megan.

This has been really, really insightful.

Thank you.

Megan: Thanks John.

Talk

Jon: to you.

That was hopefully a useful
example of a customer interview.

You can find notes from this episode,
including links to all the products

mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.

If you know anyone who might benefit
from hearing this perspective,

please share the episode.

And word of caution.

This interview is a snapshot of
just one person's perspective

in an artificial situation.

You should be very careful about
drawing any conclusions about

the guest people like them or the
product from this single data point.

Customer interviews are most valuable
when you see parallels across, many

of them will be in a specific context.

I'd suggest a minimum of
five and ideally 12 to 15.

I recommend the book, deploy
empathy by Michelle Hanson for a

practical guide on how to do it.

Well, if you'd like to join
me as a guest on a future

episode, please send me a note.

I'm jumped on Twitter.

That's J O T.

My DMS are open.

You can also use the form at
empathy, deployed.com or email.

Hello at empathy deployed.

Please include the names and
addresses of free software products

you use regularly and or pay for.