Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the
podcast where you can experience an

example customer interview every week.

You'll discover new perspectives on
different software products and improve

your customer interview technique.

As I attempt to do the same

I'm Jonathan Markwell.

And this week I'll be interviewing
when he man, when he's a customer of

Bob, Bob is an HR information system.

I'll be trying to understand
why when he purchased.

How she uses it and what
paternity leaves she's considered

when he's a human resources.

Director apps acquired, acquired,
provides payment processing and

banking services all in one place.

Hi, Winnie.

Hi

Winnie: John.

Jon: Thank you very much for taking
the time to talk to me today.

I'm very excited, uh, to hear
more about your experience with,

um, with Bob, um, or hi, Bob.

Um, this is also a main and
an HR information system.

Um, before we get started, I just
wanted to ask if you had any questions.

Winnie: No.

Um, thank you, John.

No, I'm all good to go can stuff.

Jon: I just want to double check
that you're happy to record this

interview, obviously, if it was a
normal customer interview, I'd be

asking this question saying that we
only be shared internally, but this

is a as, you know, a podcast episode.

And so, um, it will be shared publicly for
everyone to learn from your experience.

Is that okay?

Winnie: Of course.

Absolutely.

Jon: Thank you.

Okay.

So, um, first question.

Can you tell me a little bit about
how you came to need something to

do the job that Bob does for you?

Winnie: Um, of course.

Thank you, John.

Um, I think like a lot of perhaps people
in my role or in my world when you're

starting a new, a new role in a new
company and we're a startup, I suppose.

You know, it's even more.

Um, the case that in, in my
role currently is that we ran

everything from a spreadsheet.

And I think a lot of companies would
often start off with a spreadsheet system.

Really manage oil, their people, data.

So anything from start dates
to addresses or their personal

alternative, um, documentation.

We also use, um, G and everything else
to sort of for all our documentation,

but in terms of actual personal, um,
employee data, that we have nothing

to, to really make that a nice and
slick experience for our people, but

also to get some meaningful data for.

That, that, um, that data.

So I, I went about sourcing something
for my needs, from the markets, or

did a lot of interviews to try and.

That's attain what those
systems might need to look like.

And, um, so that's, I suppose, where we
started with the journey, just having

everything everywhere and using it to find
some sort of order, I think, to, to the

information that I had and to give myself,
um, some time obviously, to be able

to sort of really document everything.

Jon: Okay.

So you had all this employee
information in spreadsheets before.

Cause that has that right.

And you, and you knew that, uh, this
class of software existed already.

Um, and so you went
out to find Simons that

Winnie: that's right?

Yeah, exactly.

So I'd use a number of different
systems before to try and, um,

to help manage employee data.

So.

Really large enterprise level systems,
as well as SME level, um, HR systems.

And they all do lots of different things.

So it could be just to manage
things like holiday approvals,

workflows, and collection of, of,
you know, sensitive data, payroll,

et cetera, but lots of different
systems do lots of different things.

So I knew that we needed something
that could scale with us as we.

As we doubled the size of the company,
um, needed something in place to

try and give, to help me along with
some of those administrative tasks.

Yep.

Jon: That makes sense.

Um, and other than spreadsheets,
and you've mentioned some enterprise

tools, um, have you had to do
this kind of work manually before?

Um,

Winnie: yeah, absolutely.

Email, especially with, you know,
the pandemic, it's just email a lot

of different platforms that we use
for different, um, ID verification,

um, as part of our onboarding
process, it just needed to, to

uplift that whole process to meet.

To ensure that we're compliant, if
anything, um, and to make sure that we're

collecting this clearly and saving it
in, um, in a secure, in a secure way.

So yeah, absolutely trying to, uh,
make sure that there's an audit-able

process to everything that we're doing.

Right.

Jon: So, Going back to when you joined
this new company in this new role

and they were using spreadsheets, um,
for all this different information.

Um, and, uh, w was there.

Particular part of the process, um,
a one particular process in the work

you're doing that you're really finding,
um, uh, frustration in some way that

sort of prompted your decision to find
some software to take this this on.

Winnie: I think the most pressing thing
for us was definitely having something

that could manage our performance process.

So.

Everything's very, paper-based
having something with it.

Words roll really nicely
and align with our.

Um, mission values, what our
strategy was, making sure that

people knew where we were going.

We needed something that would
help give a sense to our people.

Um, what those priorities were.

So I, we worked OKR here.

And you had lots of Miro boards.

We were using, um, lots of different
tools, you know, in different ways.

And people were using, um,
we're using spreadsheets.

Some people were using
presentations for performance.

So I think the biggest pressing
thing, as well as organizing all

the other lovely data was really.

The performance element and
making sure that as we scaled

first business, that we were all
aligned to the same strategic goal.

And, um, so I think the, I suppose
the overarching thing for me really

was having a system that would,
I suppose, cope with the diff.

The functionality needed to
fit that really in terms of the

ability to, um, roll that into my
individual objectives or roll to

the, to departmental or to company.

So it just made more sense to have
that as my, I suppose, a backbone

Jon: tomorrow.

Did you have that process in place?

And then can you walk me through
what you would, what steps you would

go through to manage that process?

Winnie: Yeah.

So typically it's, um,
announced at company level.

So company would announce what
the OKR would, the overarching

arching objective for this, um, for
this year would be, um, or that.

Um, and we would set what those
key results, the outputs of those

objectives needed to look like.

So I suppose then each department
knew how they were going to contribute

to that big sort of picture.

And so once that was set at a
company level or get put into a.

Um, and then announced, um, our company
meeting, everyone comes together to sort

of then talk at departmental level, which
we would have done some work on to align

that with the big company objective.

So there'll be probably
three to five, you know?

Okay, ours maybe, um, would need
to hit, I think, three big ones.

Um, and at an individual level, you
already starting to think once your

company one has been set, what, how
you're going to start contributing

to your departmental objectives?

So there is, there's a sort of.

Um, a trigger point in terms of when
this information needs to be put in by.

So there are sort of aligned
to two weeks in that quarter.

So we knew when things would you buy.

Um, it's been, I suppose, a it's trial
and error because you know, this is a.

The closest way to making, I suppose sense
in terms of how do we, as individuals

contribute to that overarching company
objective while this is the clearest,

I think performance management process
that I've ever maybe, um, reviewed,

none of them are any, you know, are.

Amazing.

Uh, but this is probably as closely
aligned to best practice, I think.

Jon: All right.

And did you bring the OKR
process into the company?

It was that they're an established, it
just it's the management of it, that and

Winnie: management of it.

I think we sort of came together
at the same time, almost my CEO.

Um, Had we have a, a thing here called
transformation sessions and we'll do

this every couple of weeks, if they're
more frequent, um, sort of when we first

started and there were big sort of like.

Questions that we'd ask ourselves around,
you know, where we'd want to take this

company, how we want to shape values,
for example, what does good mean?

Um, what does, you know, um, motivation
mean all of these sorts of types of

things, and everyone, you know, would
go off and would either read the

same book or read lots of different
things and come together and have

a discussion around, um, What this,
what anyone got from it, um, and have

pretty, sort of nice open discussions
around these big, um, items measure.

What matters is, what are
those books that we read?

And RCA was really the biggest
sort of proponent of wanting to get

this, um, embedded in the company.

So really it started from.

I suppose it's decided to, to, to bring
us together, um, on this big thing.

So, and, you know, I think if anyone has
read the book or, um, or any of these

sorts of methods, it just makes sense.

Right.

Um, and I think it's the
clearest way to, to measure

these sorts of, um, these goals.

And I think get us close
to where we want to be.

So

Jon: measure what matters.

Prompted the, I brought the idea of OKR is
into the, into the business first to the

CEO and then to two other people, as you
had these, um, transformation sessions.

Winnie: Yep.

I joined in April.

So these conversations were sort of
already underway and I suppose it's part

of my role has been looking to shape how.

How the actual process will, you know.

Okay, great.

But, okay.

How, what does it mean
in terms of every day?

Um, and what does the framework
and process actually look like?

So having some structure around

Jon: that, and so, um, you kind of, you
had the book and you had an organization

that wanted to work in this particular.

And, and then you're
working out what to do next.

Did you, did you think about a
manual process around that or

did you immediately reach out to
find a software tool to, to help?

Winnie: Wow, that's the thing,
because there has been that we

have been doing it manually in
lots of different pockets, right.

And lots of different ways.

So, yeah, some people, you know,
wanted that visual sort of mirror

board, which looks quite nice and
it was quite easy to use for others.

Um, in other teams we're
doing it in PowerPoint.

And so there were already sort of just.

Not in one place.

Um, so they were already competing about
OKR, perhaps not in a unified place.

So perhaps, you know, it was
just choosing one or the other.

And those definitely descends in terms
of, I don't want to maybe, you know,

do it in this way or it just being a
bit, bit sort of maybe maybe difficult.

Um, and this felt like quite a nice.

Elements to bring into, okay.

The whole sort of HR piece that,
that the sort of, um, employee piece

engagement piece and the time of
piece together under one sort of,

Jon: alright, so that
was the driver to unify.

Everything was so that you or the BHR
team or managers could have a consistent

view on everybody positioned with.

Winnie: Yeah.

In alignment and consistency.

Absolutely.

Um, we could have, yeah, absolutely
probably use one of those things.

And that was my intention to continue
using some of these things for, you

know, a spreadsheet, you know, um,
being so small, but actually looking to

sort of build out some formal process.

Um, we can do it that way.

I think that certainly, um, Or
during this in a, in a, in a

good way, needed something else.

I think, um, I could put everything
into my diary, um, and that is our

manual process, but it does feel clunky.

Um, especially as a,

Jon: can you, can you take me
through the time I joined in April

of where you got to assuming.

You've you've now you're using Bob
when you have been for some time.

Um, and it, and it's now doing the
job of managing the process for you.

Winnie: It is.

Um, it's been, I think, I think it's been
really quite nice for the teams because

it's quite intuitive system to use.

Um, and.

So far so good.

I, I think because the managers adopted
it for, they got, you know, to, to use

it, to sort of get a run around, um, all
the different functionality, elements,

so around performance, building out their
OKR on the system, and then looking at T

you know, how they, you know, resourcing,
um, elements, um, were in there as well.

Yeah, they got a handle of it.

And then, um, I opened up
out to the wider wider teams.

Um, and because the managers had already
adopted it, I think it felt, you know,

it was pretty intuitive and easy to use.

There's nice.

Welcome screen.

It takes you through
what you can already use.

So it felt.

They, but like your customizable
sort of messaging throughout and once

you're onboarded onto the system, it
sort of is, is quite, it's quite nice.

It's like in place of a, um, what
are those called when a company has

a, and I've had these before, when I
have a page on a website and that is.

Thing.

I got can't remember what they call this.

Um, I'm not

Jon: sure if it come if it comes to
you later though, but I mean, I, um,

uh, and, and so, uh, you, you joined in
April, you see this as a big challenge.

And when did you, um, did you
sign up or stop paying for Bob?

At what point was that?

Winnie: I think we've signed up in July.

Yeah.

So it's been a couple of months, um, or
have used a load of systems, probably

just got bamboozled by all the time.

Your, your, um, just all those sorts
of different elements of functionality

that each of these systems have.

Um, and it really helped actually
reviewing different types of systems

for monist just to really then hone
into what I didn't didn't want.

I think from a system, that process
was actually really invaluable, but

it, it started merging into what,
and if I bought it as well, And

so, and also, yeah, sorry, sorry.

I was just going to say, because I
was looking for two systems, but yeah.

Um,

Jon: so you, you were looking for
two different things at the same

Winnie: things, because I think it's
very difficult sometimes to find

one system that does everything.

So because of the high volume recruitment,
though, we are looking to, to.

Build, um, over the next 12 months, I
mean, you did something that would, that

will help build the pipeline of potential
talent and help us bring to life.

A lot of what life was like working
here and give our candidates, you know,

good experience as well to sort of,
that was the front end of perhaps the

protests, uh, using a different system.

So had to use to in
the end, had to select.

Jon: So would your ideal have been
to find one, but you and you went for

two because there's not that that's.

Winnie: Yeah, exactly.

I think sometimes it's difficult
to find one that encompasses

all of those different elements.

Invariably have to, um, you know, lose
something in, in terms of, uh, probably,

you know, the engagement element perhaps.

Um, isn't so strong in some of these.

All encompassing sort of systems.

Um, and yeah, I ended up selecting two
because I couldn't find anything that

was in our budget for, um, for our needs.

So, yeah.

Jon: And how did you, if you
don't mind me asking, how'd you,

uh, how did you set the budget?

They use each of the tools

Winnie: or origin.

Great question, John, because,
you know, I just had, I just

had to pitch for the budget.

Um, so it was a little bit like just here,
where is the review of three systems?

And it just calmed down to really
two, if I'm honest, there's one

that I really wanted, but it
was just too expensive, really.

Um, And yeah, it came down to two systems
that were more or less the same, but

had very different, um, functionality.

Uh, yeah, a great question.

Jon: So, which, so there were basically
three in the mix at that point.

The one when you really wanted that
was, uh, did you decide it was out of

budget or someone else decided it was it.

Winnie: Uh, I think I, I got given
a rough budget for everything

and, um, and I suppose within that
budget I had to use, uh, there's

a load of other things in there.

And I thought, well, actually, here's what
I'm assigning to this roughly, because it

would probably been a few years since I've
had to, um, you know, look at big systems.

In my, in the last two
rolls its existing systems.

I knew roughly how much those were.

So, so I think, you know, it did have
a benchmark to go from, but ultimately,

yeah, it was, it was my decision to
say actually, you know, the size that

we are at the moment, probably okay.

To use what we have to scale with.

And if we're a certain size, it means.

When we moved to in the future,
but I said calm down to, you know,

tap functionality and price, I

Jon: think.

Okay.

And what, and can you share any of
the numbers or the way that you came

up with those numbers for the budget?

Winnie: Um, so I mean, they weren't,
I ended up having to negotiate with

the guys, um, and it was just down
to watch, uh, They were talking

with the song is that we are, we're
talking about two, maybe two and

a half grand for the ATS system.

And, you know, under five, maybe
around five for the HR system as

Jon: fee

Winnie: is that annual annual annual fees.

So it was walking, you know, the
best part, like quite, you know, uh,

So quite punchy, but for something
that you're not really going to

see, like generating any money.

Right.

Um, and so, you know, and it's
much of a muchness when you start

sort of at that SME lower end it's.

Yeah, it's very competitive pricing
and they, you know, some of them

did things like, you know, or do
something on the, obviously the number

of months, um, all of that sort of
thing rather than the price itself.

Um, so it was just really trying to
sort of get the value of what I needed.

Um, and what I could see scaling with
us if we didn't need to change, right.

I don't want to change systems,
but ultimately making it

simple if that were the case.

Um, and that probably comes down to
the ATS system more than the book.

Hi Bob, because I think that
will be fine for a little while.

Um, and there are other
ad-ons that they have.

That sort of, I think help, but it's
engagement, ease those, some sort of,

there's a nice piece in the system
that I selected, which were things

that maybe, um, would seem like ad-ons
and other HR systems, the engagement

piece, it gives you sort of some, they
have an algorithm that they don't quite

give you exactly how it's all made,
you know, made up, but dependent on.

Age and level, um, seniority, um,
and length of service, all of these

things, they've got this thing that
will come together and say, okay,

this individual has this much risk in
terms of flight or, you know, um, or

whatever, you know, what it might be,
um, which I found really interesting.

Um, and you're starting to see a lot of
these systems having these types of, you

know, it's that granular sort of data
that you sort of want, um, It helps.

All right.

Jon: Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, this is really,
really interesting.

Um, uh, so, um, can you name the other
products that you were looking at?

Winnie: Um, workable.

I looked at greenhouse loft greenhouse.

I think that's probably like the goal.

Well, to me it felt like the gold standard
of, um, for HR, like an ATS system, right.

These other sort of, um, and workable
this, another ATS system, um, application.

Tracking talk.

Um, and so, you know, they had different
sort of functionality around things

like you could, you know, interview
kits, all the things to support

your manager through competency,
interviewing, giving your candidate

all the information they may need.

You know, having workflows that you can.

Just to minimize your work, classmates
automate as much as possible, um, which

is super interesting workable goals.

I suppose, USP for, for those
guys was very much around, um, the

integration with, um, LinkedIn.

And that was very much.

Acquiring talent.

That felt very much like, um,
around that in terms of HR systems,

bamboo, um, HR, um, I'd used before.

Um, I'd used another brief
HR system using before.

Um, and what else?

I started reviewing HR systems.

So this great.

I can't remember.

Jon: Oh, sorry.

Winnie: Clear review was another one.

I really love that system.

It just felt very narrowed,
just very much performance.

Okay.

All orientated, not much more
on maybe, you know, um, holiday

tracking all of the other elements.

So, um, what else you didn't

Jon: ask me something that was the
one that was the one that was priced

at that you felt priced out of?

Um,

Winnie: um, well, you
know, I think, yeah, so.

Hi.

Well, what day is probably just too big
for us, but that is probably again the,

I would say for if anyone's watching
enterprise, that's probably the kind

of system that people like to use.

I feels like.

A lighter version of work of Workday.

Um, and we're too small to really
require a Workday type solution.

I feel that I've difficult with the
one that felt right for us and Bob

differently, you know, ticks a lot of
those boxes, I think, um, because of

the engagement piece and the ability to
sort of, um, I think people like using.

It's it feels quite a nice tool.

It integrates into slack.

It's it's very sort of
plug it in and it works.

Jon: Do you remember how you first heard
about Bob and what, why you start leaning

even considered it along with that?

Winnie: Yeah, I just keep hearing
good things about it from the market.

Um, there are other systems that
do elements of what they do, but I

think it's the whole sort of HR ASP's
probably when I was at, uh, propelled

that we didn't use it there, but I, um,
I'd heard that hyper island used it.

You're familiar with hyper island.

Um, They are, um, somebody, I know
that what's, that, um, Anna had

mentioned that she uses the system and.

Brilliant.

This is amazing.

Um, I liked what I saw, but had
no opportunity to switch any of my

existing systems in any company ever
since then to something like this.

And I think it's, yeah, I think the
guys, especially the managers that

have used it have found it quite
nice to use and quite intuitive.

You know, these things tend to be
clunky and if my managers don't use it.

You know, this, this is, I have a
very, very low, um, you know, um,

success, uh, you know, the adoption
rate, then my managers aren't there.

It makes a lot of

Jon: sense.

And so it's almost like you heard
about it two or three years ago.

Um, and you've sort of always
been in the back of your mind.

And it's and it's come up and then you
had enough share or that there was a

moment where you needed to find a system.

And so it was been natural for
you to review that alongside the

other things that you were, that
you were looking at or considering.

Winnie: Yeah, I think that's probably.

Jon: Okay.

That's very interesting.

Um, and do you remember when you say the
market, um, you'd heard from, is there,

um, so this was an art, uh, colleague
or acquaintance from, from Brighton.

I, I take it

Winnie: international company,
in fact, um, that are using it.

'cause I know, respect them and know
that their, their way of thinking

is probably in line with what our.

Wanting from something, you know,
something that's pretty innovative

that is easy to use that aligned
with something that makes sense.

You know, these performance
systems sometimes don't make

sense and they're not intuitive.

It's very clunky to use.

And so I'd heard some good things and
absolutely, you know, that's definitely

prompted, um, the conversation, um,
And w where do you know if the account

manager that I ended up talking to?

I knew from five years ago, or, you know,
we connected through something else.

So, um, also called Winnie.

And so, and so randomly, because
she has a very unique name.

It's like, I know you.

So that was quite random, nothing
to influence the process at all.

But I think because, um, we'd spoken
about other systems in the past, so.

Jon: At least coincidence is like,
unless they help jog jog memories.

It's really interesting.

I'm conscious of time we've already,
but it was speaking for 30 minutes

and I could keep going because it's
absolutely fascinating, but I know

that, um, the you've you've got to
get onside fine, um, starts to wrap

things up, um, uh, Any quick questions.

I mean, if you, so if you couldn't use Bob
anymore, um, what would you do instead?

Um, John

Winnie: Frye, what would I do and
said, oh, I, this is a great question.

What would I do instead?

I great question.

I'm not sure.

Would I get back to spreadsheets?

I mean, that would be problematic.

Um, I think it would probably
be to seek something.

Well, turn it off.

It depends.

Why, why can't I use this again?

John?

You're telling me I got used to some
more, but yeah, I think it'll be

very difficult for the guys, um, to
go back to using that snazzy holiday

tracker that we had on a spreadsheet.

Um, I think it would, it would
be we'll get on with it, right?

Like everyone.

Yeah.

I think it makes life so, so
I think it's become that go-to

tool that we use for all sorts.

Right.

Um, I'm making a good impression in
terms of people's onboarding and having

a one place, uh, one place of, uh,
for policies and what the benefits are

and, you know, celebrating, people's
sort of giving each other 360 feedback.

I mean, it's that one place to go
for all of those sorts of things.

And,

Jon: um, uh, I guess, building on that,
what, is there a particular kind of

company that would be best suited to
using Bob, but if you're in a situation

again, or, or do you consider it a
go-to tool for just based on site

number of people that your manager.

Um,

Winnie: I would say that it's
quite a nice sort of tool for,

um, scaling organizations.

Uh, there are other tools out
there that have probably more

granular detail, more functionality.

I think, you know, some of the
others that I didn't, you know,

really like lattice, for example,
lovely tool, really like that.

Um, also very similar in terms of
function that, you know, all the sort

of cute things that you could do.

Highly geared towards engagement.

I think if you care about your people
want to have, um, something that

will help you bring to life, what
is important and to set the tone in

terms of aligning messaging, making
sure that it is somewhere that

you can't over-communicate right.

Um, during these times, um, And I think
it's a great sort of way of making sure

that your people are, you know, have
somewhere that they can go and find this

stuff because we're all working from home.

Um, things are sort of, you know,
if, if you know golf, if there

isn't anywhere to go for these, for
these things, it's sat in people's

folders, um, or in people's inboxes.

So, and that's, um, just not useful.

So it's just making sure that these.

Live somewhere.

Um, and we're able to, we're all crying
out for feedback, right from one another.

And just having something that enables
that and celebrates your achievements.

And, um, you can use to, to bring up
in terms of one-to-one with our teams

at the moment, you know, before we, we
have no where to store that it was on

scraps of paper in inboxes and that sort
of thing, having something like this.

AUD brings order to some of those,
and you can have more effective

conversations within your teams.

Right?

You can have one to ones that you
think a tip is, all the things that,

all the lovely things that people
have said about you, the previous, you

know, objectives that you smashed or
not, um, or need some more support on.

It's just, uh, you know, Bringing
some order to some of those

things that we all cry out for.

We want to know how well we're doing
and to sort of be measured against

that thing that we said we'll do.

Um, and when we're rewarded
for the good stuff.

So I know that's why it's because
I hit all of these things.

It's really clear rather than, you
know, um, you're not getting anything in

actually nothing is, is, is being spoken
about, it's not aligned to anything.

The framework is unclear and it's.

Transparent.

This is the whole point of having
something that we can sort of refer to

and, um, you know, empower our teams
really, because it's about outputs.

It's not about sort of micromanaging
each of those tasks really.

Um, and our people all have stake
in terms of, you know, creating.

It needs to look like, right.

We're all steering this
ship as well as building it.

So trying to put some structure
around how, how it should

maybe look, um, together.

Jon: Yeah.

Thanks.

A lot of sense.

So such a making the decision around the
software, because it just hits those value

points quite deep down in how you feel.

Um, people should be.

Managed and, um, but after,
I guess, um, um, Hmm.

Let's think about that.

Uh, so a slightly different question.

Um, is there anything that
you would change about it?

If there's one thing that
you could pick and choose.

Winnie: Yeah, I think perhaps one
thing change, I think just having

perhaps more ability to customize
elements of it, I think is, is the

only thing that I found, you know,
when I went to try and find something,

you know, this particular element,
I was like, oh, this bit, isn't it.

Well, I, you know, it's not here.

It's actually missing.

Oh, that's, that's interesting.

It's, you know, a place to be able
to document one-to-one meetings.

Um, you know, so we've got goals, we've
got, you know, ability to set the OKR and

everything else, but actually to document,
you know, We've checked in or what have

you isn't there it's just hit goal or not
like it goal not, but, you know, there's

lots of different sort of, you know, um,
elements to the sh to that, um, percentage

element in terms of hitting goal or not.

But yeah, that was interesting.

Um, so probably just being able to
sort of customize some element, um,

Jon: so you can see if one-to-one zone.

And yeah,

Winnie: ones are happening.

And just so there's a place to be
able to document those conversations

with people clear about, you know,
we had those conversations and,

um, this is what we talked about.

Just a place for okay.

Having, um, reference to that.

But yeah, not, not, not in
existence, um, which I thought was.

Jon: I'm sure.

You know, maybe

Winnie: a

Jon: future from Bob we'll
listen to this conversation and

yeah, this is fascinating.

I, um, yeah.

I keep asking you questions
for a very long time.

I think put lots of different threads
on, on this, um, uh, Uh, yeah, we've

been speaking for nearly 40 minutes now.

Um, and I I'd love to, um, uh, I'd
love to ask, uh, a bit more about, um,

sort of your, uh, background and the
company that you currently work for.

Um, Cause one specific thing that I
think would help with context is on

the other things we've discussed.

This is also the size of the company and
it's how much it's grown since you joined

in April through to now in November.

And then what the intention is.

Winnie: Absolutely.

So we're, I've been here since,
uh, April, as you so fairly

new where, uh, skating FinTech.

We operate in the payments processing
and banking as a service sector and

what we do closely with a number of, um,
small to large merchants, um, across a

number of different sectors and where.

I think in the time that I've been
here since, since April, we've probably

hired about nine people in that time.

Um, so.

It's just me here.

So it's gaining this ship and we're
looking to double the size of our

head count, um, in the coming year.

So we're about 19 heads at the moment.

We've got somebody starting in January,
so we're really excited already that

I'm hitting those, those numbers.

Um, but in the next 12 months, look to,
to double the size of the competition,

we need to be about 45 heads.

Uh, Y the end of end of the year or
being good, the resulting pans are in a

Jon: very particular roles.

You're looking at.

Winnie: Product operations
commercial across, across the

whole band of different functions.

So we are check out the website they'll,
uh, it will be on acquired.com and

we'll look to publish a number of,
you know, what it's like to work in

certain departments, give us a day
in the life of each of our team to

showcase all the brilliant work they do.

Jon: Brilliant.

And is it, where can we
find out more about you?

Are you on Twitter and LinkedIn?

Winnie: Which LinkedIn?

So Winnie man, give me a follow.

I think he might quit to
handle his, um, or Mannington.

So check all of my, all
my handles on there.

Jon: Excellent.

Thank you so much.

Um, when he, um, that's been super.

Insightful.

Um, and, um, yeah, just a completely
new perspective, again, that know

I hear, um, with each of 'em each
of these, uh, interviews, um, and

I do different kinds of software.

Again, I hadn't really spent as much
time thinking about it turns out that I

thought I had spent thinking about it.

So thank you.

I'll, I'll get those links into the,
into the show notes for everybody,

but if we could leave with one final
question for you, are there three

other, um, tools or software tools or
products that you've used regularly

or painful that you'd recommend people
check out, um, maybe HR related or.

Yeah.

In some other way.

Winnie: Of course.

Uh, so I, I'm not sure I've had three,
but I will definitely recommend, you

know, one of these that the team are
using a lot at the moment, um, as.

And this is a CRM tool, which
is a bit like, um, Salesforce.

Um, but the guys are absolutely loving
the functionality or drive, hearing

some really good things about the tool.

And we, we use that for, for all
of our sales or commercial, um,

and customer service functions.

So operating.

Yeah, the guys are really loving
that the ATS tool I'm using at the

moment is team Taylor, liking that.

I love the, um, the ability to sort
of create videos, uh, haven't done

yet, but we'll do, um, just to make
it sort of customizable to, to us and

the look and feel of us as a company.

I don't know if I have a third, I
have to give you a thing called.

Jon: I'm sure you've mentioned
Ferris others, uh, as we, as we spoke

Winnie: to me,

Paul,

Jon: thank you so much.

I'll do that.

Thank you so much, Winnie.

Um, it's, it's been wonderful.

Um, um, good, good to see you again.

Winnie: Uh, how.

Thank you, John so much for inviting me.

Um, been lovely to talk to you and, you
know, some thought provoking questions

there, but, um, if it needs any, you
know, tap me up on LinkedIn guys.

Um, let me know, but it's lovely
and a pleasure talking to you, John.

Jon: That was hopefully a useful
example of a customer interview.

You can find notes from this episode,
including links to all the products

mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.

If you know anyone who might benefit
from hearing this perspective,

please share the episode.

And word of caution.

This interview is a snapshot of
just one person's perspective

in an artificial situation.

You should be very careful about
drawing any conclusions about

the guest people like them or the
product from this single data point.

Customer interviews are most valuable
when you see parallels across, many

of them will be in a specific context.

I'd suggest a minimum of
five and ideally 12 to 15.

I recommend the book, deploy
empathy by Michelle Hanson for a

practical guide on how to do it.

Well, if you'd like to join
me as a guest on a future

episode, please send me a note.

I'm jumped on Twitter.

That's J O T.

My DMS are open.

You can also use the form at
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Hello at empathy deployed.

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